MaxedOutMama
Tuesday, March 08, 2005
The Other Perspective
This DU thread responds to a Washington Post article reviewing the recent European press coverage and the fact that "online commentators are starting to think the unthinkable." The unthinkable, of course, is whether George Bush was correct. Most of DU ardently argues that Bush was not and is indignant at the suggestion:
Don't they see that it was not military force that created this (although Saddam's overthrow was certainly a factor, and yes, Bush's promise to support countries that tried to democratize is a factor), but the courage of the Iraqi people going to vote in the face of the threat of violence? Can't they understand how that image would resonate across the region? The list over the last two weeks includes Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait (demonstration for women's rights), and Egypt. It is hard to see all of this as "brazen bullies" forcing these societies to their knees.
I read this crap every morning Front page "news" from the Washington Post. It's hard to believe they have time to write this nonsense, let alone get it into print, what with all the time they spend on their collective non-journalist knees, kissing White House ass.and:
Shame on them.
Since when did a power vacuum augur well for democracy?That speaks for itself, I think. And:
"Democracy" is not "breaking out" in the mideaast. Civil war might be. But "democracy" certainly is not.and:
Must be his ratings in the tank...all the rightwingers are scrambling to boost the bush. Good luck.
No, he is not "right"..............But surely the point of the WaPo article is that it is the people within these different countries who are agitating? They cannot be dismissed as paid Bush propagandists, can they? One who can see it differently (Blue to the bone)writes:
if Syria withdraws from Lebanon the country will return to it's civil war and SOMEONE is going to have to break it up again. Who this time, the US? Will we be any better at it than was Syria? Is the US incapable of assassination to further their objectives? I think, not.
As far as Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc....... those measures add up to nothing more than window dressing for public relations purposes. There has been no real change, they're merely trying to appease the brutal dictator that runs our country.
The mid-east remains a tribal morass that will not completely change for generations, if ever. Feel good words and token gestures at reform will not hold and change the region.
And if he was right about democratic political order in the ME?But that doesn't fly. Blue to the bone is sternly commanded to produce facts, not talking points. (The original WaPo article has been dismissed as paid propaganda.) The oddest post to me was this one:
I was even going to tiptoe onto DU and pose that very question. There seems to be all of this rosy news all over in the last week or so about democracy breaking out all over the Middle East.I hate to put it this way, but I can't think of any democratic country that hasn't endured a certain amount of violence to get there. Kings and dictators being overthrown.... All of Europe's history for the last few centuries (and these are democratic states) is the story of revolt and struggle against oppression. I think the poster is concerned about the fact a war intervened, but is ignoring the reality that Saddam Hussein was a brutal mass-murdering dictator. Germany, for instance, got to be a democracy as a result of Hitler's very forcible removal. Does this commenter think that was wrong? What does he or she think democracy is?
Is it? Did the brazen bullies rattle their chains so badly that Europe and the Middle East are now going to come aboard our great Democracy train? hat in hand? bowing low to kiss the ring?
This seems to have happened after the Iraqi elections and the events in Lebanon.
It makes me crazy because it goes against so much of what I want to believe about the world...if indeed "might makes right", violence conquers after all, if democracy can be accomplished by force.
Don't they see that it was not military force that created this (although Saddam's overthrow was certainly a factor, and yes, Bush's promise to support countries that tried to democratize is a factor), but the courage of the Iraqi people going to vote in the face of the threat of violence? Can't they understand how that image would resonate across the region? The list over the last two weeks includes Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait (demonstration for women's rights), and Egypt. It is hard to see all of this as "brazen bullies" forcing these societies to their knees.
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Yes, they do represent the thinking of a number of people. It's less their views than the "crushing" factor that bothers me. It's as if people with different views aren't even supposed to talk to each other nowadays. That's not much of a recipe for reaching consensus, is it?
There are still some good threads over there, though. Sometimes they really do discuss an issue that needs discussion. As they get less and less tolerant, though, those threads get less frequent. I was surprised at the nearly total agreement on this one topic though, and the absolute assurance that anyone who did not agree was either being paid to express an opposing point of view or was a wingnut.
There are still some good threads over there, though. Sometimes they really do discuss an issue that needs discussion. As they get less and less tolerant, though, those threads get less frequent. I was surprised at the nearly total agreement on this one topic though, and the absolute assurance that anyone who did not agree was either being paid to express an opposing point of view or was a wingnut.
There was a very interesting one today covering the vote to move the new bankruptcy bill to the floor. Excellent resources and political analysis.
Here it is.
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Here it is.
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