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Saturday, August 30, 2008

Watching DU Disintegrate

The profound EVIL of Sarah Palin is the topic. The tactics are creative, to be sure. The mood - disturbed. Here's one of the many threads begging for a halt to the action. The OP:
Can we please leave the Palin children out of this?
I am disgusted by some of the posts in these "Palin pregnancy" threads.

Its one thing to insinuate that Sarah Palin is covering up a teen pregnancy. But to suggest incest? This is ridiculous. There is absolutely no increased risk of Down syndrome in incestuous relationships, unless one of the parties has down syndrome.

And while Republicans are vile, you can't attack a political rival by suggesting that their spouse raped their child. Based on absolutely nothing. What is progressive about this?

Not every teenager is rail thin. Just because the girl is chubby doesn't mean she's pregnant. When I was her age, I had the same physique.

Let's attack Palin on the issues, not any of this National Examiner BS. Its mean-spirited, and there is an actual child involved here. There is plenty to attack her on without dragging her children through the mud.
That's right. There is now a vociferous contingent claiming that Palin's child is not hers, but her daughter's, and that the pregnancy was covered up because Palin's husband was the father. What the heck, there was never any evidence for MIHOP and LIHOP, either. Kos seems worse, from the little reading I've done.

This stuff really, really convinces women that Democrats are for women:
Today, I am ashamed to be a DU member
I've been here a long time. Not a prolific poster, but a prolific reader. And from what I've read today, I don't belong here anymore.

Women being bashed for their right to choose having a family and a career with the support of their spouse.

Women being called sluts, bimbos and brood mares.

Women having their appearance dissected and witchhunts for compromising photos.

Innocent young girls being slandered with rumors & innuendos.

Enough. I want to win. But I don't want to win this way. And if you do, then I don't want any part of it.
There are 293 posts on this thread, and not all can concede the point that perhaps these tactics are out of order. For example, one "JoeProgressive" responds:
59. Bye. You have been here for a little over two years

Not really that long to most around here. Looks like you just want to stir the pot up by injecting sexism into the debate. Nice try but Palin is being bashed because of her inexperience. If there are a few sexist comments around then grow up and deal with it. Go vote for McCain if it offends you and enjoy setting women's rights back 40 years. That makes sense.
I think some women ARE going to vote for McCain because of this.

You know, I don't usually write about women's issues, but this kind of thing - well, it's pretty freaky. Apparently the meme that Palin wasn't really pregnant hit the radio - Thom Hartmann.

However all the claims that Palin should be NOT in a demanding job because she has kids- boy, oh, boy. That's going to make women see red. Most women in the US have to work for economic reasons, so what this amounts to is the claim that women with kids should be relegated to lower-tier jobs. This is not the sort of thing most women like to hear, but it is the type of thing that professional women know will be said behind their backs. Oh, sure, there are laws preventing prospective employers from asking you about kids, but it's still an issue. Reading all this is going to push so many buttons for women.

Now place yourself in the position of one of those Hillary devotees. Your candidate, who was far more experienced than Obama, lost. You may have attributed that (wrongly, IMO) to sexism. Isn't that opinion going to be reinforced by this feeding frenzy?

Democratic men need to wake up and stop this BS very quickly.

This comment has been removed by the author.

I was afraid that the attacks on Palin would begin right away. Well, there are so many now to be found. It makes me sick to watch this happen. Politics can be so incredibly ugly.

I really like Sarah Palin. She is dynamic! I love her "go get it done" attitude. Though, I have to say that I was really surprised that McCain did this being such a seasoned political figure that he is. However, he brings a very dynamic energy to the scene that is the same as the energy that folks are so attracted by with Obama. In some ways, I think this was a very smart move on McCain's part. I heard one journalist saying that he felt it was a very reckless move since he has had 4 bouts of cancer already. Placing her as the next President should he pass away sooner than expected, might be a whole bigger picture that needs to be really looked at. We are talking about some very serious times we are living in. Lots to think about.

It will get very interesting, for sure!

I hope you are doing well!
I remember that a couple of months ago, you posted Kipling's If on one of your economics posts. If Palin comes through this firestorm of lefty hate and cauldron of national politics intact, she'll embody the goal of that poem.
John - a great observation! Yes, she will, and I think she will make her way through it all. The woman has faced real challenges. I don't think the elites understand just how difficult the lives of people like her can be. You do have a different level of sensitivity.

Viola, I'm fine - I've just been very busy with calculations. The brain cells left over have basically been capable of nothing more than "Goo, gah".
Oh, bring on the misogyny. These folks at the DU are the best argument in favor of free speech and living proof that BHO's worst enemies are his friends.

I think that Gov. Palin knew what kind of vile trash would be said about her and that she is prepared to weather this all the way into the White House. She's probably cackling with glee at all the attacks: "That's ALL they've got?"
Thanks MoM; I try.

A further thought: McCain's just chosen his XO. What's one of the primary duties of an XO? Ensuring the efficiency and discipline of the ship (or squadron). How is that going to apply to the Republican party if he wins, particularly in view of of McCain's and Palin's records as mavericks and reformers?

The Republicans just might end up with a grownup running things for the first time since Gingrich. (They've been manifestly lacking any coherent vision since he was deposed.) It won't help them in Congress in this election cycle; but if they can purge the rot and clean up the party, it will help in years down the road.
Guys, um theses attacks are indeed vicious... but really no more vicious than the attacks spewed by far rightest on Obama. Let's see, he's a Muslim and supports baby killing. Ummm, sure. Let me be clear, I am not defending either, or dismissing either. Just saying desparate-enders on BOTH sides are just as guilty of getting off the big issues and spewing crazy dishonest conspiracies.

And as far as those big issues? I am just floored by Palin's selection. No matter how compelling her personal story is, no matter how nice she might be, no matter how much other suburban moms might identify with another competent working mom... we are not electing her to win a Lifetime Television award. She would be the 2nd in command of the greatest most powerful nation in the world. Our nation. Our nation facing 2 current wars, a recession, terrorism, failing relationships with allies, and challenges for resources from China and India.... to name but a few issues. And with McCain's age and 4 recent bouts of melanoma, it's a real possibility that she could be thrust into the top position, not later but soon. Could she handle that? Really? And not be manipulated by Putin or Achmadinijad? Not not be manipulated by the incredibly powerful factions already in Washington? No matter how compelling she is, we have got to take this seriously.

Now I know many would come back and answer to that that Obama has less experience than she does and he's running for number one. C'mon. As Judge Judy would say "don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." :) Let's completely give her her due. She's had executive experience as Governor of Alaska. That's not nothing. She's done some excellent work there and I'm proud of her. But let's also not discount that, outside of his Congressional experience, Obama has for 2 years been running multi-million dollar start up, his campaign machine,employing more than 500 employees and thousands of volunteers in every state in the nation... a start up so effective and tightly run that he dethrowned the Clinton jaggernaut, thank God. That's not nothing either.

Here's my other concern... over those same two years, he's been vetted by 35 million voters and as much pressure as can be generated by the press and backers of other politicians. My concern with Palin? She's been chosen by McCain and a very few of his inner circle with very little vetting, as I understand. She is being thrust into the hottest pressure cooker the world has to offer. Is it possible that she'll shine, make no mistakes, no large gaffes, be the quickest study ever and carry the ticket through? Is it possible there are no skeletons in her closet... real ones not scurrilous made up ones? I guess so. But much more likely is that something will pop out, either from the past or from misspeaking. And the wolves will descend. McCain wasn't doing her or the nation any favors with this selection. He did it for himself I believe, for political gimmickery, to win the news cycle, and he could care less what kind of crap she was gonna face.
They say the first "presidential" decision a candidate makes is slecting the veep.

So we have:

Obama: selects a man who's been a congress-critter washington insider for the last 36 year, with seriously questionable links to MBNA and the bankruptcy reform bill.

McCain: selects self-made governor, mother of 5, NRA life member, serious pro-choice advocate who has proved it in the most meaningful way, who has already racked up a record for reform.

This choice seems at least tactically brilliant for McCain. Solidifies the base (unless they are sexist), and shows him as thinking outside the box. Obama's choice, after 19 months of talking nothing but "change", screams "more of the same".
ARRGHHH! "Serious PRO-LIFE advoicate whio has.." etc.

Sheesh. She's hawt, my brain is meelllltting.
Regardless of outcome if she furthers the better idea that going to Washington as a congresscritter as a career is a dead end to the highest office I'll be happy.

Personally I'd be happy to see a completed term as governor as aminimum qualification as Prez.
"Guys, um theses attacks are indeed vicious... but really no more vicious than the attacks spewed by far rightest on Obama. Let's see, he's a Muslim and supports baby killing. Ummm, sure. Let me be clear, I am not defending either, or dismissing either."

I think you can fairly be accused of dismissing and defending.

Here's why:

While Obama is not a Muslim, his disingenuous about his childhood fuels the accusations.

Records indicate that he WAS enrolled in school as a Muslim. That for 2 years he received religious instruction 3 times a week for two hours a day.

Obama has noted in his two books, "Dreams From My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope," that he spent two years in a Muslim school and another two years in a Catholic school while living in Indonesia from age 6 to 10.


Rumors abound that in a NYT interview Obama is on tape as remembering the 'call to prayer' with fondness and reciting it in perfectly fluent Arabic.

The NYT refuses to release the tape of that conversation. If the rumor is untrue, why not release it and dispel the rumor?

If all of this is untrue then he has been done a grave disservice but the reports appear to be accurate.

On the infanticide charge there can be no doubt. He has lied and falsely accused others of lying.

After incontrovertible documentation emerged, his campaign directly admitted his 'error'.

The infanticide was going on prior to his vote in the Illinois legislature and he clearly knew it.

In a botched late-term abortion, once the fetus emerges and is outside the mother's body and breathing with the umbilical cord cut...it IS a BABY.

Obama voted to allow the circumstance to continue, even though the EXACT same legislation passed through the Senate with unanimous consent. Even Boxer and Clinton arose to speak in favor of the Born Alive legislation.

At the very least, that makes him culpable in the condoning of infanticide.

I know that's a terrible charge but the FACTS allow no other interpretation.

Obama has NO foreign policy experience and NO executive experience but ALL you talk about is Palin's limited qualifications while giving Obama's complete LACK of qualifications NONE.

That IS biased argumentation.

It is YOU who is peeing on OUR leg and telling us it is rain...
...claims that Palin should not be in a demanding...
Thanks, Andy.

Rob, I agree. I wanted governors. The problems that the US economy faces are the type of thing that governors understand, and senators don't. Senators are very insulated from economic realities.

Also, I think some real world experience is a huge plus. I would have been happy to see anyone with that, male or female, on the ticket.
DB - I agree that her political experience is light. However, her life experience is great, and she does have some executive experience. I think she is better qualified for the Veep spot than Obama is for president. She will get briefings and time to learn, so current unfamiliarity is not such a huge deal. She is sterling on the pragmatic economic issues on which both Obama and McCain are devastatingly weak.

As for the "vetting" issue. Hey, Obama is a great politico. We have no indication at all that he can perform as an executive. I have become more and more worried about his policies as the election cycle has worn on. He has recently seemed somewhat lightheaded, to put it mildly. He's trying to get input from everyone at once, which is not working well for him. I believe that he's a nice person who genuinely wants to do good, but I am becoming more and more skeptical that he will be able to achieve anything of that good in office, because I think he doesn't understand economics and necessary tradeoffs well enough to accomplish anything. He's seeking advice from a wide range of experts, but unfortunately most of the "experts" don't understand the economy of this country well at all, so the man is wandering in circles to some extent.

I truly believe that Obama was better than Clinton, but I'd rather have seen a governor get the presidential nomination on both sides of the ticket. However, we have what we now have, and I am very glad to see someone with a base and a perspective formed outside of the Washington bubble join the top of the ticket.

I was extremely disappointed that Obama did not choose Richardson for his VP.
I am voting for Obama but I think so much of this is sexist and it could turn me the other way. Yes...her experience is light but no more light than Obama or Bobby Jindal. The greatest prejudice in America may be the mentally ill but sexism seems to be a close second!
Anon - yes, this has indeed raised a number of issues for me.

Because there is absolutely no way that any man would have been exposed to this type of scrutiny. None. Especially by the press, which is pushing a lot of this.

Ronald Reagan's first child was born less than 9 months after his marriage. Did anyone count the months? Cheney's lesbian daughter was never much of an issue. But let a woman run, and "vetting" her suddenly becomes a puritanical exercise, and suddenly she should stay home to take care of her family.

Obama did release a statement against the focus on the daughter, though. He's a heck of a lot better than a lot of his supporters.
Obama had to take this hands off family stance. He's hoping then people won't muck rake all the stuff on his biological father. Just google "a drunk and a bigot"

one copy of the story is here.


The American press has stayed away from this story. It is to the credit of McCain's camp that they haven't used this material against Obama. He could take after his father.
"Although charming, generous and extraordinarily clever, Obama Snr was also imperious, cruel and given to boasting about his brain and his wealth,"
And why was Obama not honest about what he knew about his father in his book? Once I heard that he was hiding this history I had no respect for Obama.
Here is a link to an "offended woman"


Looks like it is the liberal women who fear "strong independent women", not us regular spare-rib liking guys.
Ah, Mr. Sensitive. Yep, most men in the country are looking at her and gooing WOW. Particularly, you know, very sensitive metrosexual types who have always secretly longed to get weapons training from a hot babe.
And every one of these attacks reminds the Hillary supporters of why they don't like Obama. Every attack that implies she is a hick, reminds those "bitter clingers" why they don't want to vote for the Dems. McCain said that she has grit and I think she will be able to weather these attacks. And yes, her record really is that squeaky clean, no matter how much the Dems are trying to dredge things up.

Now if we could just discover why Obama is so upset at attempts to take a look at those Anneberg files...
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